tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post4310375705628381856..comments2023-09-12T01:15:08.356-07:00Comments on Honduras Coup 2009: "The final solution": The National Congress, elections, threats and illegitimacyRAJhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00097415587406899236noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-13370122379374947842009-08-27T14:53:40.041-07:002009-08-27T14:53:40.041-07:00"The Zelaya camp": this characterization..."The Zelaya camp": this characterization attempts to deny the legitimacy of the broad resistance to the unconstitutional regime, equating it with the narrow politics of one person. But as anyone in touch with people in resistance knows, it includes people who were Zelaya activists and others who were not.<br /><br />"what would otherwise be normal elections": normal elections do not take place in a country without freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and a host of other rights suspended-- by the way, without the correct legal forms-- by the de facto regime. My point, here and elsewhere, is that there cannot be "normalcy" until the constitutional government is restored. Until people are not shot for assembling. Until radio stations do not experience threats for broadcasting views the government does not like.<br /><br />I did not write that "undermining the election is a very undemocratic thing". I just re-read the post wondering where that came from; please give me a pointer to what you interpret this way.<br /><br />Honduras constitution, unlike that of the US, states that voting is obligatory. I hate to tell you, but if you told anyone in the US that he or she would be forced to vote in a Presidential election, you would have a riot on your hands. Our democracy stands as much on the right of people not to vote for those with whom they do not agree as on the right to vote.<br /><br />And that extends to the cherished right to vote for people who have no chance of winning but whose views you endorse. So no, I do not think the intimidation that has led the UD to be compromised, or the injuries that have led to the inability of the independent candidate to even campaign, are irrelevant because they do not have a chance to win the final election.<br /><br />I would even have to note that what historically the UD has polled is no predictor of what it might poll, as part of a new coalition, if there were the necessary conditions of normalcy to allow a campaign. (That is: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press.)<br /><br />Finally, threatening people with removal of their citizenship is in fact a very undemocratic thing to do. Implying that people are not really citizens because you disagree with them is a very undemocratic thing to do. It is a sorrow to me that those imputations have become part of the political bag of dirty tricks in this country. Honduras is struggling against powerful forces that encourage hatred of those with whom you disagree. That encouragement of hatred comes from the de facto regime and its apologists.<br /><br />I recognize an attempt at a "gotcha" argument. And I refuse to accept your attempt to spin things your way. The Honduran constitution may call for obligatory voting, but with the move toward ever greater democracy throughout the last twenty years, no one enforced that because it was understood that to enforce that was totalitarian.<br /><br />Not democratic.<br /><br />Fascist.<br /><br />Not democratic.RAJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00097415587406899236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-13248281446018529772009-08-27T13:34:05.886-07:002009-08-27T13:34:05.886-07:00RAJ,
Forgive me for my blunt comment.
The...RAJ, <br /><br /> Forgive me for my blunt comment.<br /><br /> The point I was trying to make is that it is the Zelaya camp that is creating insecurity to hopefully derail what would otherwise be normal elections.<br /><br /> I disagree with you on many points, but what I wish to concentrate on is the election. In that, from re-reading your article, we agree a little more.<br /><br /> Regardless of whether Zelaya was removed correctly or not, or whether the election is a "magic" solution or not, undermining the election is a very undemocratic thing to do. Isn't this what you wrote in your blog post above?<br /><br /> The only candidate that is pro-Zelaya, that of the UD party, has boycotted the election. The truth is this party hardly ever gets more than 2 or 3 percent of the vote. He might have gotten 10 or 20 percent of the vote this time, but he is wasting the chance.<br /><br /> Boycotting elections, or trying to sabotage them, are very undemocratic things to do. The Honduran constitution gives grounds to remove Honduran citizenship to those who threaten the electoral process. <br /><br /> It is Zeleya's supporters who threaten that this will be the most violent election in Honduras yet. The current government wants everyone to vote. Why should anyone stand in the way?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02715371148173975049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-83054320601192079462009-08-27T09:13:38.268-07:002009-08-27T09:13:38.268-07:00All OAS nations and all EU nations, and in fact, e...All OAS nations and all EU nations, and in fact, every government in the world has condemned the de facto regime and its takeover of Honduras against the will of the people, which included the removal of the constitutionally elected President without the due process guaranteed by the Honduran constitution and laws, and with the violation of core principles of the constitution that absolutely prohibit the expatriation of any Honduran.<br /><br />You cannot have it both ways. If you want the world community to respect an election as expressing the will of the people, you cannot allow the military to remove a president whose political views you disagree with. That elevates the military to a position of power and independence that fatally damages democratic process.<br /><br />The violence in Honduras, which has included four deaths of protesters acknowledged to be by the armed forces firing live ammunition against unarmed civilians, not to mention many extra-judicial killings of those clearly targeted for their political speech, is condemned by every international human rights group that has studied the issue. The violence has been disproportionate to the "threat" the protesters posed, and therefore violates international law to which Honduras has sworn to adhere that governs how to manage civil protest, a fundamental right of the people under the constitution.<br /><br />In the absence of a guarantee of freedom of speech, candidates who disagree with the actions of the de facto regime cannot freely campaign. In the absence of the right of free assembly, politicians who disagree with reactionary opinion cannot speak to the potential voters and are at a disadvantage. In the absence of a free press, with the threats to independent media, the electorate cannot receive information from all candidates. And in the knowledge that any electoral choice not to the liking of a powerful elite that controls the army, no voter exercises free suffrage.<br /><br />You can throw around insults all you want. That is not how anyone wins a reasoned argument. The apologists for this coup are so deeply out of touch with reality that you think I and others should cower if you accuse us of being allies of Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez. You need to get in touch with the contemporary world. The "communist threat" your military claimed to protect my country from? doesn't exist. China, a communist country, keeps our economy going by lending us money so we will spend it on the products they export to us. And to you in Honduras! Hugo Chavez' oil company provides oil to the US as it did to Honduras. And the tired old threat of Fidel Castro remains effective in the US solely as a naked ploy to win votes in elections in Florida, and in the last elections here, it didn't even work there.<br /><br />What your country does not deserve is to be deprived of economic modernization, social justice, and a place in the world community. You have a regime in power that has said Honduras does not need the world community, and that it can survive economically without it. So your grain reserves are being sold, in an act of appalling mismanagement, and your currency reserves are being depleted at a rate that has your Central Bank raising alarms.<br /><br />Wake up and understand that Venezuela was never a threat to you. You had a president smart enough to enter into advantageous economic arrangements that took advantage of Chavez' desire for political influence, knowing that there was no danger of it damaging Honduran democracy. These relationships were urged by and supported by most of those now in your de facto regime; indeed, Ramon Custodio criticized President Zelaya for not signing onto Petrocaribe more rapidly.<br /><br />You cannot have it both ways. If you want the international community to respect your political choices, commit to respecting the political choices made in free elections even when you disagree with them. If you want coaching on how to do this, talk to those of us in the progressive community in the US. We had eight years of experience we can share with you.RAJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00097415587406899236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-77508767037082741172009-08-27T07:32:02.042-07:002009-08-27T07:32:02.042-07:00All ALBA nations will condemn the elections, but i...All ALBA nations will condemn the elections, but international condemnation does not remove the authority the constitution grants to the people to choose their government.<br /><br />The insecurity in Honduras exaggerated in this article is largely caused by violence by the Zelaya protesters, and threats by Fidel and Chavez's friends.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02715371148173975049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-35388267424674839552009-08-20T21:34:24.409-07:002009-08-20T21:34:24.409-07:00Two delusional commitments I originally thought we...Two delusional commitments I originally thought were just ploys seem for many regime members to be real (if wildly uninformed) beliefs.<br /><br />First is the one Doug notes: election day will be magic. The world, this theory goes, will be happy and relieved and good will flow again. (Is it bad of me to note that the implication is that unelected de facto "president" Micheletti is the whole problem?)<br /><br />The second delusion, which RNS covers in his next post, is that if people would just listen to the regime's story all would be forgiven.<br /><br />I wish these were ploys; because they appear to be real beliefs, it is clear we are dealing with actors so out of touch with international reality that it is hard to see an end to their intransigence.RAJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00097415587406899236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-20547601774061507782009-08-20T19:07:03.255-07:002009-08-20T19:07:03.255-07:00RAJ,
These politician can not even meditate befo...RAJ, <br /><br />These politician can not even meditate before passing a resolution. This is only more evidence that political party leaders own the decision making process in this country, as you clearly point out.<br /><br />Also, the compulsory vote is not enforced yet. It would not be a surprise for me that in the following days congress pass a law that would enforce it.<br /><br />NO PASARÁN!TITOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13986510928517428309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2341954168256070610.post-23506861372418756752009-08-20T19:05:21.091-07:002009-08-20T19:05:21.091-07:00They could have saved themselves alot of ink had t...They could have saved themselves alot of ink had they just said "Callate y vete a votar"<br /><br />Seriously, it does seem as if they think November 29 will be some magic day, a day in which people will lose their distrust and all the nations of the world will forgive and forget..Doug Zylstrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03023935711242140793noreply@blogger.com